Long time reloader right here as well which is why I couldnt believe when I read what I did in that other articleclearly someone that doesnt understand how these things work!! People have walked off from head shot wounds from the venerable .45, .38 mag, etc. The deers shot with 9 ran and ran far compared to the short distance the 45 shot deer covered (100yds or less). 2 from 15 ft, 2 from 25 ft, jumping to 2 from 50 ft. And 2 from 100ft. We argued more capacity modern rounds ect ect. I would challenge anyone to shoot a 9mm against my 45 and, I promise my 45 will be the 9mm all day everyday. You have bo clue what youre talking about other than maybe your steel target fell over a little easier with a heavier bullet at the range. for all the same reasons. Hmmmmsince there probably wont be any takers how about we all shake hands and realize were all bound brothers with the same interest. Somebody needs to vet their sources of information and also use a little common sense. When theres no more powder burning to push the projectile, it decelerates. Americans have this impression, I think, that comes from watching too many old movies, that a bullet fired from a handgun is supposed to flip the bad guys ten feet into the air, if not disintegrate them altogether and leave a smoking pair of haji sandals on the pavement where they were. The one thing Ive learned and seen over a lot of shooting is that a 9mm with FMJ bullets is mostly useless. While typical SKS rifles do not qualify as assault weapons because they have a fixed magazine and stock and lack a pistol grip, Hodgkinsons gun would have met the criteria. There was no blood on the floor below him. To my way of thinking, its great as a CC gun, or that in the boot back-up. Ive seen too many people want to hunt but do not have ability to take a animals life. also carry a lcp ruger 380 in a desantis pocket holster, covers the trigger guard real nice. That was with 6 shot revolvers or 17+1 round Glock 17s. 0.22" Lead air gun pellet at 600 ft/s will penetrate 4' plate glass. We have came a long ways with jackets, cores and construction of bullets in the last 50 + years. Also my pattern emptying a clip rapidly against someone with a 9mm, Ill win that as well all day everyday! and manufacturers. We cannot recreate these or even reliably use the data. The .45, for instance, is slightly slower than the 9mm, but features a more massive projectile, with 250 grains of mass compared to the 9mms typical 115 grains. This study is still referenced time and again for its information about wounds inflicted by grenade and shell fragments, but what it says about handgun bullets doesnt fit the bigger r always better narrative, so that parts been buried and forgotten. The gunman was able to inflict such extensive damage from across a baseball field because he was using a semiautomatic rifle that may have qualified as an assault weapon, akin to a standard infantry combat weapon. We were already running +P for our 9 9mms. finds relevant news, identifies important training information, WebActually, three different types of pressure change appear: (1) shock wave pressures or sharp, high pressure pulses, formed when the missile hits the body surface; (2) very high pressure regions immediately in front and to each side of the moving missile; (3) relatively slow, low pressure changes connected with the behavior of the large explosive Taurus 45 After reading comments from many veterans here, and from what ive seen on the streets, in a true life or death situation give me the largest slug possible. What I have also seen on the range at 25 yards, while shooting steel silhouette time after time, was the 9mm would fail to kick the silhouette out of the track 7 out of 10 times without placing another shot. there is no substitute for Cubic Inches. It was modified to accept a detachable magazine and equipped with a folding stock. A 9mm round fired at close range to the skull with the correct ammunition will be fatal nearly all the time. I have been hand loading my rifle and pistol ammo since 1975. I carried a Colt 1911 while serving in Korea. Please dont send me any hate mail. When it does occur, it is not a significant factor in wounding. We enjoy our 2nd amendment and want it protected and were prepared to give our life to defend our country. If these shootings have something in common, it is each and every one is different. There are a number of reasons for a failure to incapacitate, including a lack of awareness of the wound, intense personal fortitude, extreme emotions or physiological effects both natural (adrenaline) or chemically-induced (drugs such as PCP, heroin and cocaine). Sign up now to get our latest stories and eye-opening briefings. Therefore, the 9mm is probably the correct choice. May everyone who reads this have a Blessed Day! The better the bullet and the shot placement of an officer, the more likely the officer will go home after a shooting. He is an NRA Pistol Instructor, a Colorado P.O.S.T. Have fun be safe and shoot often for sport and recreation and maybe someday to save your life and loved ones! So dont ask. WOUND BALLISTICS - Motion and Effects of Projectiles in the Daniel, the US has generally abided by the Hague (and Geneva) Conventions and their respective protocols. Very accurate and deadly, The bullet travels at 1450 FPS. But the modern bullets are getting better all the time! Do Not Sell My Personal Information. Let me now take you back to 1987. Shot with 300 win mag at 500 yards. 45 stopping power! Youd be much better served with HOT 357 mag loads or a 44mag. There are an almost equal number of shootings with 9mm that are ended with one or two shots as well. As might be expected, larger-diameter bullets produce more devastating wound cavities and have a greater likelihood of striking vital organs. View our Terms of Service They are a secondary source at best. Watch the .22 and the .223 tested on blocks of ballistics gelatin, a material that mimics human tissue. /9mm has a lot more options when it comes to ammo but I prefer my Springfield XD .45 or my Kimber Custom II 1911. You could smell the gunpowder. As stated before, this article isnt intended to solve the stopping power debate, but only to discuss the issues it involves. Police, f.b.i., military have smaller people with smaller hands that need to be accomadated. FN DUH! Indeed, you and bystanders in the immediate area are much more endangered by rounds that do not penetrate sufficiently than by rounds that overpenetrate.. Very smart Chris ! Officer Needs Help!!! One of the best ammo in the market right now is Hornady Critical Dury which is 135 gr. Because head shots are rare and extremely difficult, and torso hits are likewise difficult and do not result in immediate incapacitation, choosing handgun bullets for officers is a critically important task. The germans used 9mm forever and they know their guns and war making. It has never failed me and conceals extremely well. I think everyone should think back to why the 1911 was made. Garand Thumb 2.84M subscribers 4.2M views 1 year ago 9mm vs 45 ACP, the age old debate and the one that Ive carried about every size round in my 71+ years of which 36 was an LEO. As a medical provider who fractured his back, making a house call in Alaska-dealing with chronic pain issues-I have talk to our local Police Captain. Fragmentation cannot reliably be counted upon with handgun wounds because of the comparatively low velocity of handgun rounds. If you have been hit with any kind of bullet large, fast, expanding, or otherwise please fill out our survey about your experience after being shot. Your shot placement will be perfect. So its all about what fits they individual and what they are comfortable and accurate with. Also, I have pretty much explained what you have just said. .45 ACP damage increased from 35-40-65 to 35-40-75, and minimum damage decreased from 60% to 50%. I know some are going to maybe chuckle but when I want a deep concealed handgun, I go with my PF9 Keltec. Riley has trained extensively under instructors such as: Rob Leatham, Mike Seeklander, Tim Herron, Scott Jedlinski, Matt Little, Kyle Lamb, Dave Spaulding, Jeff Gonzales, Bill Blowers, Chuck Pressburg, and others, amassing many hundreds of hours of formal shooting and tactics training. But if stopping power is your only indicator of success in battle, then I suggest a WWII 16 inch navy rifle same as the Battleship Missouri ! I have never fired a .45 but rarely find the grips comfortable when I pick them up. Just came down from AK and bears and mad moose have been my biggest issue. The 45 deer had busted bones and bullets still within them. Oh, and Sgt. Still, no one should select a caliber based on the assumption that it will expand sufficiently to incapacitate an assailant. If that were true, we would only have one size Shoe, Clothing Etc. He eventually was taken off life support 4 days later, open casket funeral. Of handgun owners alone, 63 percent owned these for the purpose of protecting themselves against other people, with another 20 percent owning them for protection against animals. Possible off hand 200. One person might be able to control themselves and squeeze off a headshot. I have my personal preferences and it is the .45 ACP, next is the 40 S&W, down the line a couple of notches is the 9mm. 0.22" Lead air gun pellet at 450 ft/s will make a hole in, but not penetrate 4" plate glass. Riley, love your artical. The expansive quality of these rounds creates larger permanent cavities. But you have not reached the mark to replace that recoil spring. I read a study from an Army medic regarding one shot kills from a handgun. Anyway great comments to all. People have died from hitting their head just right after slipping at their desk,kitchen. 9mm Luger now offers select projectiles that are, under identical testing conditions, outperforming most premium line .40 S&W and .45 Auto projectiles tested by the FBI. This can cause more than embarrassment. Out charges the male mental with a screw driver in his hand. I have formed the opinion that the 9mm is adequate, the 40 S&W is better and the 45 is best. Battlestar Galactica. So they fudge the data. A more accurate equation is (terminal) Energy, defined as 1/2 the mass times the velocity squared. 5.56 NATO in .223 Rem could result in failures. of a gun, it flies at more than 3,200 feet per second, and is still going 1,660 feet per second after traveling 500 yards. Q-Did the owners of their weapons replace recoil springs on a maintenance schedule? IMHO, everyone of us is different in all ways from head to toe and mostly including the brain and fitting a handgun is different for all. (As my Sr. DI liked to say Two in the chest, and one in the head, then youre pretty damned sure that the bastard is dead.. , Hodgkinson was armed with a rifle that shot 7.62 caliber bullets. It also drops in Air Drops, rarely as Tier Chest loot, or very rarely spawn as Tier World loot. These are rounds designed to expand upon impact with a soft target. Hi, I have both. I was told by a person in the government that the choice of 9mm verses any other round was decided by the cost and mass availability of the ammo periodFor Military, FBI, CIA, Police, Sheriffs and all governmen t branches I usually only post on the Reloading and Springfield portions of this forum, but I feel it needs to be stated of course that all the well educated and sincere folks who have posted actual facts regarding calibers and flung mass "shapes" are simply trying to destroy the internet and forums like these. But its definitely not easy to carry concealed (especially in hot weather) and Im big guy. It goes in a like a nail.. .45 Actually killed to individual who I shot vs the others who all but one lived. Tissue inside the human body is remarkably elastic, even vital organs such as the lungs, bowels or circulatory system. Anyway, stay tuned we shall wait and see. So, have you experienced shooting someone at close range with each caliber to determine the stopping power of each round? If you take it in the field and get it dirty, see how easily serviceable that weapon is then. I would easily give credit to the Colt 45 on reliability accuracy and range, my 9mm all it really does better is shoot faster because it has a 4 lb. Now for long engagements that are seen more in military ops and where fire suppression matters most I prefer 9mm. This recent policy change and operational change means the U.S. Marine Corps' special arm of SOCOM (U.S. Special Operations Command) has also come to terms with the debate of 9mm vs. .45ACP. 0.177" Lead air gun pellet requires a minimum of 300 ft/s velocity to penetrate fresh human skin. To make a long govt document short, the armor would likely stop a 9mm with a few bruises. They ability to kill. Witnessed it first hand. The comments concerning shot placement are correct. The two most important factors to consider, in order of importance, are penetration and permanent cavitation. Developed in the 1950s, this round combines high velocity with large bullet size. end of discussion. I think its preference and if you can conceal it. And thats hardly re-enacting a self defense scenario. But only weighed 140 lbs then. And let us not forget the adrenaline factor. I had a Sig P320 and the recoil is not that much greater. Im sorry but a 225 grain bullet going 850 1200+ fps vs a 127 grain bullet going 975 1150 fps is going to be more effective and deadly. I carried a 1911 in Vietnam as well as a 12 ga. .45 stayed on the hip. But the guy kept on coming. I immediately thought, I think Ive been shot. Took about 1Min until the shock yielded to the pain. The old adage If its good enough for the military, its good enough for me. is just nonsense today. That has been the best comment so far. Yes, Hugh, I have shot both rounds into a human and I can say this. Clothing fibers can wrap the nose of a projectile, preventing expansion. How about a test sample of exactly the same bullet weight in a high impact L.E. I trap and shoot most animals with a Browning 1911-22 now. I much prefer the 45 acp and have used it on game from deer to moose and it always was my go to gun. I also have one that many people will call garbage. This pits apples to apples and will once and for all lay to rest all this ludicrous debate. Has anyone thought of learning how to control the .45 instead of wimping out after the first shot? I have used the 1911 govt. I have several. Its disturbing to me that we give up performance for comfort. A. H. Hassall, The microscopic anatomy of the human body Wellcome L0024128.jpg 1,100 1,796; 960 KB. I guess I might be a little old school, 1911 45, M1 Grand in 3006, or M1A in a 308, these are older, but they have not made better guns or calibersI still have a glock and some 9s, but only because If I do have to use it I dont want to lose my 1911, and yes I have a AR15, but still like the A1 more. Patrick explains in his treatise that, A bullet simply cannot knock a man down. The bullet had disintegrated his spleen and torn his aorta. While the classic .45 ACP round is large, its also relatively slow, with an average velocity of 850-900 FPS for most types of ammo. I'll tell you what DOES impact penetrationit is the frontal area of the bullet and its relative friction and resistance as it impacts a body and attempts to travel through. They also have a budget. But I have some serious doubts about his understanding of external and terminal ballistics. I am old school. Officially last year it was announced that DoD intends to move to hollowpoint ammunition with this new MHS gun (whichever one ends up winning the contract). The gun was designed prior to WW1 and its main usage was close combat in regards to trench warfare. Colt Defender 3" 45 ACP; Colt Gov't 70 Series; Kimber Warrior, w/ Rail; Kimber Warrior II; Kimber Super Carry Pro; Kimber Super Carry Ultra, 45 ACP, 3" Remington 1911 R1 Enhanced 5" 45 ACP; Ruger SR1911 Commander 4 Colt Model 1903 Pocket Hammerless the is bone different muscle mass fat and other bonds in our bodies Everywhere else, you have only a chance of incapacitating your target. To the extent the wound components cause or increase the effects of these two mechanisms, the likelihood of incapacitation increases. I have read how the 124gr 9mm ammo used by NATO does not do its intended job. But for those of us that like to aim and make good hits Ill take the 45 as a primary with a compact 9 as a backup. In a statement, the FBI said he used a modified an SKS , the predecessor to the AK-47 which shoots the same bullets. Small grip,,Low recoil,,, easy conceability One size does Not fit all. Its too small. 10mm. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rwYqGmVvzQ, http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1165386, http://www.m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=&f=91, http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=34714, http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2008Intl/Roberts.pdf. We had a good chuckle out of that one. While each of them has no direct bearing on incapacitation, they must all be considered. Im very confident a 45 caliber would have been one and done. Moreover, law enforcement shootings typically result in only one or two solid torso hits on adversaries. to stop the threat. SS and Homeland couldnt be to aly wrong!!! Yet the 12 is more powerful and more lead, but one shot can put some on their hind end. So many guns so little time! This includes victims shot by suspetcs and suspects shot by our officers. Kimber 1911 Rapide Dawn .45 ACP Pistol $ 1649 99 1649 dollars 99 cents. Secondly, if you you tube ballistic testing of the 9mm and 45acp, lets say using Federal HSTs you will see that the 9mm round is more than capable and every bit as functional as the 45 in getting the job done. I am just way more comfortable with the way it shoots. That changed for me Dec of 2017. The reason is recoil. This makes rifle rounds significantly more damaging than their handgun counterparts. There were 5 gunshots to his chest. None used a big cal but all targets were immediately incapacitated and all targets were within 1foot to 20 feet away. Any round can accomplish that, even the much-maligned .22. Better get that imagination under control, tough guy! It got up and walked about 25 yards before falling. In one case study of a 24-year-old man struck in the chest by a .40-caliber hollow-point pistol round, doctors found organ damage outside the direct path of the Fire Rate: 850 rounds/minute. Shot placement rules. No matter what caliber you are carrying, just remember that one of the keys to shooting through auto glass (whether from within or outside the vehicle) is to shoot as much as possible through the same hole. 125 gr 9 mm PB fully jacketed bullet will generally penetrate both skins of a car door. 9mm doesnt work so well one at a time from a pistol, but we didnt have any expectation that it would. Core, you touch on something that I have often thought about. Browse our site today and place your order with confidence. Either will get the job done for protection. What I find more often than not is, in cases of 9mm shootings, unless its a head-shot or perfectly placed shot to the sternum, victims rarely drop where theyre shot and are often found blocks away from where the original shooting took place police actually have to trace blood droppings back to their origin to find the initial crime scene. Take it this way, someone shoots at you, you at them. It is a very real possibility and one that should be considered. The role of the gun industry in Americas gun violence epidemic. NATO settled for the 9mm as a general service handgun cartridge after the war in part based on the testimony of a whole bunch of old SS guys whod served on the Russian Front. Ill leave it at this and welcome any comments of common sense and or experience. And the quicker the better when someones fanning a gun at you. The story makes that even sound too few. Most people ask to be shot with the 9mm instead of the .45acp. No lab test can tell you how likely a round is to drop an assailant, but they can tell you how destructive a round is upon impact, which is the best metric youre going to get. A lot. .4570, .454 Casull and .460 Super Mag are all tremendously powerful. You probably wont feel as much pain in your hands or joints when the rounds go off as when youre practicing on the range. With the way things are going today I decided it was time to carry again. I just got a glock30SF and im thinking of adding her to the g27 for my CC permit. Tearing and rupturing is common in tissue surrounding the wound channel. Steel BB or 0.177" lead pellet at 200 ft/s will detach part of the coloured portion (iris) of a human eye leaving what appears to be a second pupil. The round severed Platts brachial artery, passing through the arm into his chest and almost entirely through his right lung. However, caliber is at least as important and should not be ignored when choosing a weapon. As someone just coming in your home or coming at you out of the blue. Well judging by the fact that .45 has been killing people since at least the 1870sI'd say it can really screw up your day. According to a sweeping 2016 survey, there were, at that time, more guns in the hands of Americans than there are cars on the road. Basically what I'm saying is the .50 is almost the same size as .45 and the tissue damage is near the same. We were trained with a .45, to protect the patient. Ships To Store. .40 S&W I carry 180 grain HP. This was not a good CC gun so I traded it for a S&W 39-2 9mm. Center Mass/head shots are guaranteed kills. Ricochet off. I will address the people shooting the weapons in the military. Rounds that do not hit the intended target are obviously more dangerous to bystanders than a round that hits the target. The paramedics said he probably would not live. WebThe 45 will but them down and bleed them out real quick with a gut shot, the 9mm will have them flopping around and may not stop them from firing back, also from the pools of blood near the bodies the 45 does more damage. For a tommygun, I'd probably go with 1d8 base damage, +1 magical weapon bonus to represent penetration and damage, and the ability to make a cone area attack (save or take damage). Unfortunately, there is no valid, scientific method of analyzing actual shooting incidents. It might be bigger, but bigger isnt always better. I believe you are in some way getting a kick back from someone, wanting to push the idea that the 9mm is more affective than the 45. Interesting. The earlier FBI testing left no doubt that tissue displacement was greater with the larger rounds. Will that hollow point still have the same effect? It can also destroy your aim, and the strongest bullet on earth is useless if it doesnt hit the bad guy coming at you. Think the title of this article is misleading. Doctors later determined that this round was not survivable. I have both, like them all, and carry them because rifles are hard to conceal! My opinion, for whatever its worth, is that were all overthinking this. Like John Saunders, I also used a M1D scoped. It makes a bigger hole. I thought I would never own a 9 mm. Gimme a break! by Kyle Mizokami Key Point: These are the bullets that will do the Not everyone can adequately conceal a full-sized Colt 1911. Thanks for reading and commenting!! By the way. If you kill one, you take one out of battle. I Have hair and an angular face. I am not aware of any hollowpoints that were designed to expand on the way to the target. Some bullets are so fast, they dont deliver the force of the bullet. At 8yoa my dad taught me to shoot with a 1911. However, in early 2015 the door was cracked open, allowing them to choose Glock 19's (chambered in 9mm) instead of their larger counterpart. Well Obama wants his pay raise and his retirement increased. In those 53 years, weve built a reputation as one of Texass most trusted firearms dealers, and we did it in a state where sellers of used guns are almost as common as oil wells and prime rib. When they strike, the bullets rotate, and more of their surface hits the body. His chest was gurgling and slurping. This gave the enemy a chance to still bury a spearhead in the shooters chest, before finally collapsing from internal damage and blood loss. Developed in the early 1960s, the .223 round was first used in Vietnam. Circulatory collapse will result in significant deprivation of oxygen to the brain. He watched MARSOC during a multi-national special forces competition, MARSOC couldnt compete with the low capacity 1911. Frank K. Seems to me that when using the same style bullet in the 45 and 9mm the 45 would still beat the 9 in stopping power. We souped up the 38 special to produce it .The 10 Auto was dumb ed down to create the 40sw. So any caliber is better than none. I know this is off topic. WebSTI Tactical. He gets there with his partner and the front door of the bus opens. You need to be a little more specific. .45 caliber merely refers to the diameter of the bullet. There are a large variety of cartridges that fire b To me the rest dont count. Wondering if these Marine special operators are not only allowed but required to carry exclusively the 15-round Glock 19, why not the slightly larger and higher capacity Glock 17? round, you can see all three effects. Can someone comment on this? The question isnt how many people die from being hit with a certain a round, but rather what do they do immediately after being hit?. However, in a self-defense situation, the object isnt to kill your attacker; its to end their ability to cause you harm as quickly as possible. .22lr is an assassins round yet we all have fun plinking around with it. I love it. Then, theres the venerable .357 magnum, which, though smaller than the .44, comes roaring out of a barrel at speeds as high as 1600 FPS. Keep in mind that fragmentation does sometimes occur, however, it cannot be relied upon. Episode 424 is the perfect companion to this post because we discuss caliber and it's relation to hit factor! 3, both hemolymph ACP and AKP activities of P. clarkii were significantly decreased in the 30 and 50 mg/L groups compared to the control (P < 0.01).Similarly, PO activity also exhibited a significant reduction in the 30 mg/L group (P < 0.05) and the 50 mg/L group (P < 0.01), respectively.However, LZM activity showed a significant increase Proper shot placement is the lamest argument based on logic.
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